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  1. #1
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    Question Reverse T3 and CT3M

    Sitat Opprinnelig skrevet av Paul Robinson Vis post
    When there is not enough chemical energy the cells respond by converting less FT4 to FT3 and more FT4 into reverse T3.
    So, the consequence of low adrenal levels and cortisol in particular is lower FT3 entering the cells.
    • Do you write about reverse T3 and total T3 in your book?


    ref: http://www.sonjas-stoffskifteforum.i...Reverse_t3.pdf
    According to this info the result of tT3 divided with reverseT3 should be at ca. 6,25 +/- 1 (Unilabs reference range)
    Redigert inn: for those with low thyroid function - Hashimoto.

    I got my total T3 and reverse T3 measured some time ago:
    S-Trijodtyronin: 4 (1,2 - 2,7 nmol/L)
    S-reverse T3: 0,6 (0,14 - 0,54 nmol/L)

    Sitat Opprinnelig skrevet av Kevlin Vis post
    tT3 / rT3 = 6,666666
    Sist endret av Mod; 09-09-18 kl 20:46 Begrunnelse: Lenken
    Kevlin
    ... bare fordi du er paranoid: så betyr ikke det at de ikke er ute etter deg!!
    Lavt stoffskifte - Erfa Thyroidfra slutten av 2009
    Min første halve pille med Erfa

  2. #2

    Standard Re: Total T3 divided with reverse T3 - is this an issue in your book?

    I don't use total T3 - it is somewhat irrelevant.

    I write about reverse T3 yes. Reverse T3 is important but I don't worship the FT3/rT3 ratio. There is no ideal ratio for someone. SOmeone who has a HIGH rT3 has a problem but there is too much fixation with blood test numbers. Most people do better with an FT3 near the top of the reference range and without excessively high rT3 - but always symptoms and signs tell you if you are hypothyroid - not blood tests.
    • The author of 'Recovering With T3 My Journey from Hypothyroidism to Good Health Using the T3 Thyroid Hormone' discovered he was hypothyroid over twenty years ago.
    • Don't give up hope. There are solutions that work. Please explore this website and it will provide many new ideas for you to consider.

  3. #3
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    Cool Sv: Re: Total T3 divided with reverse T3 - is this an issue in your book?

    Sitat Opprinnelig skrevet av Paul Robinson Vis post
    I don't use total T3 - it is somewhat irrelevant.

    I write about reverse T3 yes. Reverse T3 is important but I don't worship the FT3/rT3 ratio. There is no ideal ratio for someone. SOmeone who has a HIGH rT3 has a problem but there is too much fixation with blood test numbers. Most people do better with an FT3 near the top of the reference range and without excessively high rT3 - but always symptoms and signs tell you if you are hypothyroid - not blood tests.
    Okay - I see your point about the fixation
    But I want to underline that I'm not talking about free T3 (fT3) - but total T3 (tT3).
    Kevlin
    ... bare fordi du er paranoid: så betyr ikke det at de ikke er ute etter deg!!
    Lavt stoffskifte - Erfa Thyroidfra slutten av 2009
    Min første halve pille med Erfa

  4. #4

    Standard Re: Total T3 divided with reverse T3 - is this an issue in your book?

    FT3 is far more useful than total T3. Knowing how much T3 exists in a form bound to protein is nearly completely useless information. It doesn't do anything other than tell you that there is T3 there. It is entirely inactive. I would never look at total T3.
    • The author of 'Recovering With T3 My Journey from Hypothyroidism to Good Health Using the T3 Thyroid Hormone' discovered he was hypothyroid over twenty years ago.
    • Don't give up hope. There are solutions that work. Please explore this website and it will provide many new ideas for you to consider.

  5. #5
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    Standard Sv: Re: Total T3 divided with reverse T3 - is this an issue in your book?

    Sitat Opprinnelig skrevet av Paul Robinson Vis post
    FT3 is far more useful than total T3. Knowing how much T3 exists in a form bound to protein is nearly completely useless information. It doesn't do anything other than tell you that there is T3 there. It is entirely inactive. I would never look at total T3.
    I totally agree!

    With one exception: the method of calculating the ratio between T3 and RT3. One can not calculate between different units of measurement. In order to calculate the ratio between two hormones, in principle, they should both be present in the same unit of measurement. Either "free" to "free" or "total" to "total". Because RT3 is available only as total measure, we need a total measure of both - RT3 and T3 - to calculate the proper ratio between these two. Ratio calculated between the free value of T3 and total value of RT3 can not be entirely correct.

    Really interesting lecture about exactly the role RT3 plays in thyroid conditions Optimizing Thyroid Function - A Look at Reverse T3 -- The "Brake Pedal" of Our Metabolism.
    Sist endret av Mod; 09-09-18 kl 20:48 Begrunnelse: Lenken
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    • Vil du vide lidt om hvad jeg står for, er du velkommen til at læse min signatur her

  6. #6

    Standard Re: Total T3 divided with reverse T3 - is this an issue in your book?

    Yes - but I also re-state that there is no ideal FT3/rT3 ratio at all.

    People vary and sometimes someone can be well with a quite high rT3 and sometimes it needs to be very low.

    Also, rT3 is highly volatile and fluctuates greatly in the day. So, a blood test at one time may show a high rT3 whereas one hour later it may be a lot lower.

    I think rT3 is an important hormone but the FT3/rT3 ratio isn't important. Only very high rT3 numbers are usually helpful.

    Symptoms and signs is most often the best way to assess actual thyroid hormone activity. Symptoms like energy level, weight gain/loss, whether someone feels warm or whether they are constipated or not, and signs level actual body temperature tell us more about our thyroid hormone activity than most blood tests do.

    • The author of 'Recovering With T3 My Journey from Hypothyroidism to Good Health Using the T3 Thyroid Hormone' discovered he was hypothyroid over twenty years ago.
    • Don't give up hope. There are solutions that work. Please explore this website and it will provide many new ideas for you to consider.

  7. #7
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    Smile I do not comment on the opinion about T3/rT3 ratio

    Thanks for your comment.

    Sitat Opprinnelig skrevet av Paul Robinson Vis post
    Only very high rT3 numbers are usually helpful.
    Yes, but how can one know how high this ratio is, in fact, if this ratio is not calculated correctly?

    I understand your point very well, but I do not comment on the opinion about whather one can or can not use the ratio between T3 and RT3 for anything.

    My only issue here is that in order to be sure of a correct result, both components must be present in the same unit of measurement, which in this case is a total value of T3 because the value of RT3 is already given in a total amount. If anyone wants or needs to know its own T3/rT3 ratio, it is necessary to obtain blood test to determine the total value of T3. Otherwise it's meaningless.
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  8. #8
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    Standard Sv: Re: Total T3 divided with reverse T3 - is this an issue in your book?

    Sitat Opprinnelig skrevet av Anisa Vis post

    Really interesting lecture about exactly the role RT3 plays in thyroid conditions Optimizing Thyroid Function - A Look at Reverse T3 -- The "Brake Pedal" of Our Metabolism.
    The link to the lecture on YouTube dosn't work any more. The YouTube account linked to the video is cancelled.
    Sist endret av Mod; 09-09-18 kl 20:49 Begrunnelse: Lenken

  9. #9

    Standard Re: Total T3 divided with reverse T3 - is this an issue in your book?

    I assume you have to convert them into equivalent units. Since they are both measures of the amount of a hormone present in a volume then there should be a way of converting them.

    Since I never use these ratios at all then I don't have the specific answer. FT3/rT3 and total T3/rT3 are both regularly looked at by some doctors and so they must be able to convert the units.

    I just don't know the maths because I don't use the ratios as I think they are generally unhelpful.

    Paul
    • The author of 'Recovering With T3 My Journey from Hypothyroidism to Good Health Using the T3 Thyroid Hormone' discovered he was hypothyroid over twenty years ago.
    • Don't give up hope. There are solutions that work. Please explore this website and it will provide many new ideas for you to consider.

  10. #10
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    Smile Sv: Re: Total T3 divided with reverse T3 - is this an issue in your book?

    På dansk nederst i dette indlæg (Danish version at the bottom of this post).

    Sitat Opprinnelig skrevet av Paul Robinson Vis post
    I write about reverse T3 yes. Reverse T3 is important but I don't worship the FT3/rT3 ratio. There is no ideal ratio for someone. SOmeone who has a HIGH rT3 has a problem but there is too much fixation with blood test numbers. Most people do better with an FT3 near the top of the reference range and without excessively high rT3 - but always symptoms and signs tell you if you are hypothyroid - not blood tests.
    I have a great respect for Paul Robinson's life work and for CT3M method, but I consider it to be a mistake to overlook the importance of RT3 as an indicator of the degree of CT3M method's effectiveness for the individual patient.

    Compared to the CT3M method, RT3 is not so relevant because the only source of RT3 in our bodies is T4, while CT3M method works by T3 alone. Nevertheless, calculating the ratio rT3/TT3 can be extremely helpful in identifying those patients who will achieve the greatest effect of CT3M method. The poorer rT3/TT3 ratio, the better effect of CT3M method.

    Normally, T4 is converted to T3, which is the active hormone, the body's cells use to sustain life. While many of us, in general, have problems with the conversion of T4 to T3, there is perhaps even more of us, who converts T4 to far more RT3 than is good for us. This means that proportionally more cell receptors become "blocked" by the excess RT3 molecules and this prevents the active T3 from reaching into the cells. Patients experiencing that their hypothyroidism gets worse, despite the fact that blood samples are shown, although the most ideal levels of hormones in the blood.

    Unless the patient is measured both the RT3 and Total T3 separately from each other, and then calculates T3/rT3 ratio, there are no other methods to determine which patients convert T4 to too much of RT3 , and who does not.

    Converts the patient's T4 to too much of RT3, will any treatment with either synthetic T4 or desiccated thyroid lead to continued conversion of T4 to RT3. The only way forward for these patients is to interrupt the flow of T4, from whatever source, and replacing T4 with a slowly increasing supply of pure T3.

    Provided that T4 is no longer applied - it takes approx. 12 weeks before RT3 is "cleaned out" from cell T3 receptors, but it is not useful to measure the RT3 in the blood to confirm it, since RT3 disappears from the blood long before it disappears from the T3 receptors.

    This means that for patients with a (too) low rT3/T3 Ratio, will slowly increasing supply of pure T3 be not expected to provide the full effect until at least from 12 weeks after the phasing out T4 is completed and the supply of pure T3 is started.

    I will therefore conclude by claiming that it is a mistake to ignore the role of RT3 in relation to CT3M method, because it imparts this method, the ability to predict the degree of effectiveness of the method in the individual patient.

    I hope this mistake will be corrected, so more "hopeless" hypothyroid patients may achieve an improvement, since the insight into their rT3/TT3 Ratio can give them the courage to give CT3M method a chance. Not least because this can make us independent of fluctuations in the supply of desiccated thyroid in the future. I don't thing, that Big Pharma will never stop sabotaging desiccated thyroid, for protecting, safeguarding and promoting the sale of synthetic levothyroxine.

    Best wishes for all sick in our cold North, and in the rest of the world.

    Dansk: Jeg har en stor respekt for Paul Robinsons livsværk og for CT3M-metoden, men jeg anser det for at være en fejl, at man overser betydningen af rT3 som indikator for graden af CT3M-metodens effektivitet for den enkelte patient.

    I forhold til selve CT3M-metoden, er rT3 ikke så relevant fordi den eneste kilde til rT3 i vores kroppe er T4, mens CT3M-metoden fungerer ved T3 alone. Alligevel kan udregningen af rT3/TT3 ratioen være yderst behjælpelig med at udpege de patienter, der vil opnå den største gevinst ved CT3M-metoden. Jo dårligere rT3/TT3 ratio, jo bedre effekt af CT3M-metoden.

    Normalt bliver T4 omdannet til T3, som er det aktive hormon, kroppens celler bruger til at opretholde livet. Mens mange af os, i det hele taget, har problemer med omdannelsen af T4 til T3, er der måske endnu flere, der omdanner T4 til langt mere rT3 end godt er. Det betyder, at proportionelt flere cellereceptorer bliver "tilstoppet" af de overskydende rT3-molekyler, og dermed forhindres det aktive T3 i at nå ind i cellerne. Patienterne oplever forværring af hypothyreose på trods af, at blodprøverne viser, selv det mest ideelle indhold af hormoner i blodet.

    Medmindre patienten får målt både sit rT3 og Total T3 separat fra hinanden, og derefter udregner T3/rT3 ratio, er der ingen andre metoder til bestemmelse af, hvilke patienter konverterer T4 til for meget rT3, og hvilke ikke gør.

    Konverterer patienten sit T4 til for meget rT3, vil enhver behandling med enten syntetisk T4, eller Thyroid betyde, at konverteringen af T4 til rT3 vil fortsætte. Den eneste vej frem for disse patienter er at afbryde tilførslen af T4, uanset fra hvilken kilde og erstatte T4 med en langsomt stigende tilførsel af rent T3.

    Forudsat at T4 ikke længere tilføres - tager det ca. 12 uger før rT3 er "renset ud" fra cellernes T3-receptorer, men det nytter ikke at måle rT3 i blodet for at bekræfte det, da rT3 forsvinder fra blodet længe før det forsvinder fra T3-receptorer.

    Det betyder, at for patienter med en (for) lav rT3/T3 Ratio, vil den langsomt stigende tilførsel af rent T3 ikke forventes at yde den fulde effekt før tidligst fra den 12. uge efter at udfasning af T4 er tilendebragt og tilførsel af rent T3 er påbegyndt.

    Jeg vil derfor afslutningsvis hævde, at det er en fejl når man ignorerer rT3's rolle i forhold til CT3M-metoden, da den bibringer denne metode muligheden for at forudsige graden af metodens effektivitet for den enkelte patient.

    Jeg håber at denne misopfattelse vil blive rettet, så flere "håbløse" hypothyreose-patienter kan opnå en bedring, idet indsigten i deres rT3/TT3 Ratio kan give dem mod på at give CT3M-metoden en chance. Ikke mindst fordi dette kan gøre os uafhængige af svingninger i forsyninger af Thyroid i fremtiden, idet jeg tror at Big Pharma vil aldrig ophøre med sabotere Thyroid, for at beskytte, fremme og sikre salget af syntetisk levothyroxin.

    Bedste ønsker for alle syge i vores kolde Nord, og i resten af verden.
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